The following reply was posted by Neill Gorton on the RPF an hour or so ago. Nice little rant you'll find and that's coming from me. I was going to get some sleep but having read through it, this deserves a reply. Oh yes. (My responses in
RED)
"Hmmm, CT’s been having fun while I’ve been away.
You'd better believe it bub.
Now that I’ve stepped back from the Replica’s game I’ve not really kept up with CT and his silliness. I think I’ve posted enough about this whole debate to wear my fingers to nubs and really couldn’t be bothered to write anymore but my attention was brought to this thread though. I had a look at some comments CT made and feel compelled to post in order to defend some individuals he’s made comments about or referred to indirectly in a derogatory manner. While CT is chucking crap at me then that’s fine, I can take it, have taken it and am really not bothered by anything an egomaniac who rants like a comedy potty mouthed Bond villain has to say about me but I don’t like to see that spread to others.
You're bothered enough to write this diatribe so on some level what I've said actually does bother you. Still, I'll take that as a compliment. Let's dance....
Firstly I’d like to defend an accusation made against longtime rpf member Chris Martin. CT makes this comment regarding images of our prototype sonics’;
“They have been nowhere near a prop - FACT. I have found out that their 'prototypes' were stock reference pics taken by the props department of brand new Robatto-made props built prior to Season 3!”
That's because MFX didn't make them. Nick Robatto, the original propmaker, did.
Nope. Way back on the old thread about the sonics at SDDC08 long time RPF member Chris Martin posted those images. Chris works frequently at MFX and is a model and prop maker of international repute who has worked on numerous major film and television projects as well as doing private commission work. His Eagle Transporters are the finest out there. CT’s comments suggest that Chris must have been lying about producing these pieces as he claims Nick Robatto did and that these images where of art department props. His comment also suggests that Chris, or I, never had access to the original props. This would suggest that I conspired with Chris to tell a lie about this and that Chris posted pictures of someone else’s prop work and took credit for it on this forum. A pretty nasty accusation don’t you think? He follows this accusation with the word – FACT
You want facts, here’s the facts;
Chris was engaged by me to produce two prototype sonics’ and two prototype Master’s laser screwdrivers. We both travelled up to Upper Boat studios in Cardiff on the 10th October 2007 and spent several hours photographing and measuring several props. These included the sonic, the masters, screwdriver a Judoon translator and the Toclafane. We looked at all these props as I was considering offering all of them as replicas at one time.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mfxreplicas/ (this is a link to a Flickr account with pics for this post – I know, I know, a chimp could upload these to TheRPF but something isn’t working for me so anyone else is welcome to do it. Hey, at least I’m not a chimp! (but you look like one - sorry cheap shot, very juvenile but fuck it, I thought it was funny) )
I’ve posted some images I took while Chris was doing his measurements. Note the graph paper and the graph paper that the two prototypes where photographed on as well as the other props on the table. You can also see the boxes the sonics’ are kept in – mag lite boxes of which you’ll see behind the scenes footage on confidential showing the same thing and even screen grabs on CT’s own blog.
Based on this I may be wrong on that point but all your picture shows is 'someone' apparently measuring some props. That doesn't change the fact that a fat lot of good that this measurement of the prop did you. It's a shame your final product bears nothing but a passing resemblance to the prop you measured. Sorry, but if I am wrong, I'll admit it. Nolo contendre. But you haven't shown I am yet.
So here is Chris (I’ve obscured his face as the name he uses on RPF isn’t his real name so I’m protecting his forum anonymity – if Chris is cool about having his face shown then am happy to post images showing his face) doing his thing in a photograph taken by me so I can guarantee this image will not and cannot be found anywhere else because I took it during my time of having access to these props.
One thing does bother me about this. Why obscure his face? He could very easily be a BBC prop bod. How do we actually know he is 'Chris Martin' and that he works for you? You've got no reason to lie but just saying is all.
Of course anyone with half a brain can figure that it would be incredibly odd if an individual like me, who has worked on Doctor Who for six years and frequents the production facility on such a regular basis couldn’t get access to the props. Why would that happen? How could I even begin to make a replica without that access and how would the BBC allow a licensee like myself make and sell a replica without access??? Of course all these simple and obvious facts that a child could see the logic of but even these pictures won’t stop CT making his ridiculous claims because the truth doesn’t fit with his propaganda and desire to make ridiculous claims of conspiracies, but they will convince the more sensible of you.
You've hit the nail square on the fucking head Neill me old mucker....but let me phrase it another way: how the fuck would a person who works on the show and allegedly has this amazing access to the props actually produce a prop that is so inaccurate to the real deal? That is the logic I have been struggling with. Conan Doyle once said that if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, has to be the truth. Now here you have produced a clearly inaccurate prop. Either you are incompetent or you didn't have the access to the prop that you said you did. I, in my infinite good nature and beneficence, gave you the benefit of the doubt and refused to believe you were that incompetent, hence my conclusion of the latter. Clearly, and from what you are telling me, I was wrong. You really are incompetent.
Anyway, if those props where made by Nick Robatto and I had no access to them what was I doing at San Diego ComiCon with one of them in 2008??? There’s a number of posts on that old thread were posters state they met me, on the EFX stand, and we had the two ‘pop up’ version made by EFX AND one slider version. This was seen, handled, photographed with me, and was photographed with, and by, numerous fans at SDCC08….. Are they all part of CT’s conspiracy too? Did I pay them all off to pretend that prototype existed and that they saw it, handled it and took photos of it?
Ok, let's cut the bullshit. You and I know that Robatto was hocking these things about privately for a four figure sum. It wasn't exactly that big a secret. Most of the production crew apparently had one as do several collectors. Clearly you got hold of one of them. They were not your fucking 'prototypes'. They were props you bought, under the counter, from the original propmaker. The pics of the two 'prototypes' was a Robatto pic - pics he was using to flog them. I don't know this for sure, but I have a suspicion that the slider version you were waving around at ComicCon was on loan and you probably don't have it anymore. Tell me, why have no further pics surfaced of it? And why have you refused offers of stupendous amounts of cash from private collectors wishing to purchase it? The 'it's disassembled' excuse is a bit thin isn't it? Obviously your business must be doing fucking well if you can afford to turn down offers like that.
So, what happened to them. They got dismantled – that’s what a prototype is for! My good friend Barry at EFX sent one out to his factories in China for them to use as reference for the pop up prototypes and that’s why I only had one of them at SDCC08. Remember, originally we were going to produce a pop up version in association with EFX, hence the pop up proto’s being on display on the EFX stand, but eventually we went our own way with it and produced the slider version instead. All this is well documented all over forums so nothing to really add to that.
Nice smokescreen Neill but I wasn't refering to the pop-up one. I am not interested in the pop-up one. This has zero relevance unless you are refering to the one that is currently still in China? But something doesn't quite gel here. If Barry Jones sent one of the 'prototypes' out to China as reference for the pop-up sonic, was this prior to ComicCon or not? At ComicCon you clearly have said you had two pop-up sonics. Why not send one of the pop-up sonics to China instead as this was clearly planned on being the release version? And the slider one would have been pretty useless for reference as it is the wrong dimensions for the slider version: the ridges were a totally different shape and the body was longer to account for the spring mechanism. I don't buy it. And correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the pop-up version used briefly at the End of Voyage of the Damned? I put it to you that you have only ever had the one slider version and this whole other story is cock and bull.
Chris also made two Master’s screwdrivers. Both of those are in LA with Barry as we’ve just not got around to getting them back over here. Here’s a picture of the Master’s screwdrivers taken by Chris as they neared completion.
Yawn. I was talking about the slider sonic. Let's stick to the facts.
So CT’s – FACT – is shown to be a complete – LIE – and fabrication and includes accusations of passing off of others work as his own against rpf. member Chris Martin.
Nowhere above have you proven anything of the sort. Are you saying 'Chris Martin' made the slider sonic prototype or not? Because all you have shown is a couple of pics of a person with a blurred face and a psuedonym apparently measuring a few props. I still contend that the slider 'prototype' was made by and obtained from Nick Robatto. Nice try, but you are going to have to do a lot better than that.
Next up; Russ Brown. Russ knows my feelings on unlicensed replicas. He’s had his ear bent by me about it enough. My opinion on that has never changed. I’ve also not individually attacked any forum member who has bought an unlincensed CT sonic or any unlicensed prop. Not verbally abused them or called them crude names (as CT does frequently about folk who bought the MFX sonic). CT came after me, attacked me personally, hurled abuse about me, told lies about me and has tried to repeatedly damage my credibility and my business with lies and crude abuse (The guy even photoshops pictures of me – creepy!). I engaged Cambar engineering to do CNC work. This is a company owned by Russ’ father. As far as I understand Cambar engineering don’t produce unlicensed prop replicas and nor does its owner Bob Brown. Russ clearly has an association there but his business; RBReplicas was not responsible for any of the work on the sonic and Russ has confirmed this himself. So I know people who produce unlicensed replicas – so what? Do I agree with it – no, and I tell them. Do I support them and pay them to do work – No. should I disassociate myself personally from anyone who has any dealings with unlicensed replica props – I’d have to give up my membership of the RPF if I did.
That is the lamest most bullshit excuse I have ever heard. Russ Brown and his dad are not mutually exclusive. The fact that you engaged his old man's company, through Russ, to do the work is an administrative and accounting distinction. The fact that they are based in exactly the same premises and use exactly the same equipment and share the same phoneline is neither here nor there. It's semantics. It's like saying I refuse to buy a Vauxhall but I'll buy an Opel - even though they are the same company!!!!! Have you told this to Sixteen 12? How do they feel about this? No solidarity between fellow licensees then? (Sorry - you're an ex-licensee aren't you? Sore point, many apologies). My old man makes aerospace and weapons components. What if he approached you to make the sonics? Knowing full well that the same equipment was used by me to produce mine. Would you refuse to do business? According to your standards, it wouldn't matter as me and my dad's business are separate. Pull the other one Neill. There is just as much shit on your hand as mine so don't come over holier than thou. It don't suit you.
Regarding some raised eyebrows at the fact that some components where machined outside of MFX. Of course they were. I don’t have a CNC machine costing tens of thousands of dollars and have never claimed I had. I also don’t own laser cutting equipment or water jet cutting gear or make and produce electronic components. This is all normal manufacturing procedure and was applied to other replicas. Before I bought a vac form machine all the vac form domes on the Cybercontrollers where done by an outside company from my patterns. The metal crown on Davros was hand made by us for the original used in the show but when it came to doing replicas is was far quicker and more cost effective and sensible to draw up the individual plates and have an outside sub contractor water jet cut components for them for us. We then cleaned up, drilled, tapped and assembled the replica ones. I use specialist companies all the time in my work. Any sensible person does and it helps keep costs down. The big animatronic robot hands pictured here for example. We made ‘a’ finger then drew up all the components and had the components for three pair laser cut by an outside firm.
Fair enough point. But why say it was made 'in-house'. To be honest, it doesn't make a blindest bit of difference to me but it does to some people.
Now, as anyone with a business like mine will tell you tend not to discuss details of suppliers and sub contractors for obvious reasons but as Russ has mentioned Cambar and his dad’s involvement then there’s little to add other than to note this statement from CT;
“....why a company in Buckinghamshire, near to MFX, that specialises in die casting and metal moulding, all but confirmed they were involved.!”
Well if they did then they’re lying because – as Russ has confirmed here – they were CNC’d by Cambar engineering in Hertfordshire. Give me the details and name of this company we can all check this one out?
The company is a metal casting company based in Buckinghamshire. Can't be many of them can there? I called them to discuss some recent work they did for you and I described the piece. They seemed perfectly amiable and seemed to know exactly what I was talking about and they thought I was calling from MFX. When it became apparent I wasn't they told me they couldn't discuss things further. Draw your own conclusions. I did.
So CT is still insistent that the heads where Die cast and not CNC’d. So Russ and I are now both liars and we’ve even drawn in a respectable CNC machining firm to back up this claim………… WHY? What difference does it make.
Plenty. As it is fundamental to the accuracy of the prop.
The originals were hand machined so to CNC ‘OR’ Die cast would be different from the original prop anyway.
Accuracy doesn't seem to high on your agenda with the rest of the prop so why bring this point up?
Why then lie about it? CT has just got himself wrapped up in his own lie and now can’t back down. Why? Because he’s stated it as another of his FACTS and now can’t go back on it when the truth is so clear to see to everyone. There’s even the name of the company who did the work. Blimey!!!!
No Neill. I stated several independently verifiable physical observations that lead me to believe strongly that the head or head blank was cast. Can you explain them? Go on cleverclogs, provide me with evidence to refute the observations. If you can I will gladly eat humble pie cooked in a Mongolian hotpot.
My other area of concern is the repeated suggestion that CT has someone ‘close to me’ or ‘on the inside’ at MFX. Naturally this always gets my attention. Not because it concerns me but because it’s clearly nonsense and is a prime bit of conspiracy theorists buffoonery. It would suggest that members of my staff are talking to CT about business matters within my company and this paints a picture of my staff as an unpleasant tongue wagging bunch so let’s move on to defending them. I have a total of four staff. They have worked for me ranging from three years up to Millennium Fx’s co-director, Rob, who has been a friend and associate for over 15 years. All four of them are above reproach and would have no interest in or motivation or desire to discuss the inner workings or details of my business with an outsider. I mean- besides the fact that none of them as individuals have an actual interest in replica props anyway – what would motivate them to jeopardize their jobs and careers by chin wagging to CT? Seduced by his charm maybe?
So my staff are clear of any accusation of association with CT. So as far having access to any information within MFX or claims of insider knowledge this leaves only freelancers and casual visitors; Casual visitors could tell you nothing about insider information other than where the loo is maybe and how big the building is. We certainly don’t share business information with casual visitors. Freelancers – now there’s lots of these. We have about 20 people working with us on a freelance basis at any one time. Over a year up to 100 different freelancers with differing skills will pass through our doors for periods of work ranging from one day to six months. Could one of those be snooping around, ear wigging conversations and passing on info to CT. Possibly but I doubt they’d have any genuine ‘information’ or ‘facts’ to discuss but think about how he phrases these things;
“…not just my personal assessment, but the assessment of many experts in the industry including some of Gorton's chums. Oh, and the small fact I managed to track down the company that made the components for the MFX!”
To be honest, I wasn't really surprised by this. There have been murmurings from inside MFX for a while that things have not been rosy in regards the state of their licence.
So how come I wrote the above and I knew about the fact that you had your licence revoked 72 hours before you officially announced that you had 'handed your licence back'? Do you make it a habit about telling all and sundry about it? How could this news have permeated all the way over here unless I had inside information? And why did I state that it had been taken away as opposed to your sanitised face-saving PR version about handing it back voluntarily?
Doesn’t it sound like something from the pages of a gossip mag? “murmurings from inside” or “some of his chums!” have said about Brad and Angelina, blah blah blah! All sounds terribly interesting, covert and mysterious. Fact is how often does this ‘exclusive insider info’ turn out to be just nonsense and usually some *** bit either made up or just a bit of Chinese whispers half overheard by a cleaner rather than from anyone ‘close to’ anyone with any legitimate facts.
If you try and quantify this with CT he uses the ‘protecting my source’ as an excuse for not validating his claims. Okay, CT, what if you could go some way to validating these claims without possibly compromising your source? Interested? If you can tell me some very basic facts about my business that any one of 100 freelancers, or a few facts even a casual visitor could tell you, then it will add some credibility to your claims. So ask these people ‘close’ to me and “my chums” and those with insider knowledge to answer these very simple questions that can in no way incriminate any one individual;
Where do we keep the vac form machine at MFX?
Does it matter?
Rob and I are co-directors but do we share an office or have separate offices?
Do I really care?
How many urinals in the gents loo (or cubicles in the ladies if the source is female)?
Does this have any bearing to the accuracy of your sonic screwdriver?
Describe my tea mug? Now that may sound really obscure but tea making is a major part of the British workforces’ day and everyone knows the Boss’s mug! Heaven help anyone who drinketh from the boss’s mug. Anyone who had spent even a single day working within MFX could answer this as it’s also a bit of a running joke.
Now you're getting desperate...
Lastly, what’s my favourite soft drink. The fridge at MFX is always full of them and I’m well known amongst the crew, my ‘chums’ and any insider for being addicted to this. Again a running joke amongst absolutely anyone who knows me or knows anything about day to day business at MFX.
The only running joke I'm interested in is your sonic screwdriver
Ok, they’re slightly silly questions but, as I say, they are things anyone with a passing association to MFX could know so they couldn’t possibly pinpoint an individual. What they are though is such basic questions that if CT’s supposed ‘insider’ or one of my ‘chums’ can’t answer then how is it they can have any knowledge of any other more detailed aspect of my business? Inability to answer even these simple questions will rubbish his claims to have insider info don’t you think?
Does this actually mean my information is wrong or inaccurate? Obviously I've touched a nerve. Actually Neill, has it occured to you that the people I speak to don't actually know they are speaking to me? Do you also honestly think I couldn't get the info you ask? Why is that info relevant to me anyway? I couldn't care less what your fucking mug looks like or whether you are addicted to diet coke or whatever your poison is. These are all irrelevant to me and my business. Besides, if I were to start asking my source(s) the answers to the above trivial questions don't you think they will realise who I am or it may reveal to you your mole? Gimme a break Neill. Your knowledge of basic espionage is pitiful. Tell you what, why don't you tell the world why the BBC took your licence away? It is really, really galling you about who I am and where I am getting my info, isn't it? It's pretty obvious I'm not just any old schmoe. Your childish attempts to goad me into making a mistake or revealing my sources are not going to happen. Face it, I'm out playing you.
What will probably happen is he’ll bluff and fluster and denounce it as rubbish but it goes to expose his lies for what they are.
Sounds familiar. I haven't told any lies and therefore cannot be exposed. You, on the other hand, I've caught out time and time again. Bluff and fluster? Not me. I stick to the facts and have consistently used your own deceit against you. Project all you like.
Just like the lie that he’s had access to original props. Show your pictures then (I just did) prove it. You can doctor a picture and crop it to obscure anything incrimination what might expose your source so go on then. Show us an original picture of an original prop that no one else has. If you have that info why don’t you post it? Why did you have to go through the whole rigmarole of taking measurements from commonly available reference material and pictures of sonics, and all that photoshop jiggery pokery on your blog, when you claim to have access to original props as well as detailed measurements.
Neill, are you turning this into a pissing contest? My proof is my product. Obtain one of my sonics (if you haven't already) and measure it. Show it to Nick Robatto. Compare it side by side to a Season 1 prop. You will find that it is identical in every dimension. I FUCKING GUARANTEE IT. In fact, I dare you. I challenge you to have the balls to back up what you're saying. If I haven't had access to a prop how the flaming fuck could I have produced this, this frankly seminal and magnificent piece of work? Search your feelings Neill, you know it to be true. I certainly will not post my blueprints and notes and other material that can be used to identify me and my sources just to satisfy the ego of a man who has nothing to lose. I have much more to lose than you have to gain. I can prove through my product that my claims regarding prop access are true. You can't prove that I haven't and I will not jeopardise my security just because you dare me to. Remember that Gorton.
Fact is CT is just full of nonsense that he peddles as FACTS when it’s actually just propaganda and conspiracies. Just look at the writing of anyone who peddles conspiracy theories and then look at CT’s blog. They’re the same kinds of arguments. Half facts and supposition claimed as FACT.
Facts which happen to be independently verifiable and facts that are so apparently untrue that you have gotten incredibly upset and still have not bothered to answer any of them directly but propagated my apparent dishonesty in rebuttal - great argument.
It also involves the kind of circular arguments that are impossible to prove or disprove.
The accuracy or lack of, of the MFX sonic CAN be proven. You just choose not to participate. Prove the accuracy of it then. Go on. You chickenshit liar.
He hides behind his anonymity of sources and information to allow him to peddle any nonsense for his own ends. He uses bold statements that are hard to disprove, smoke and mirrors and misdirection to bamboozle and convince.
No Neill, I use independently veriable observations, common sense and your own convoluted inconsistencies, lies and mistakes from people like Karsten to make my point. You cannot disprove truth.
Like these;
These are people who are off loading MFX's en masse on Ebay because they have bought mine. This is not fiction. This is FACT……..
So I had a little browse at ebay – search every way I could think of and guess how many I found being offloaded “en masse?”…. None. I couldn’t finds a single one. Now that’s not to say there haven’t been any or won't be any but considering they’re a sold out LE collectible and there will always be a secondary market then there’s always going to be sonics’ popping up on ebay at some time but – right now, out of the 500 sold– there are all of zero on ebay. CT needs to check the meaning of ‘en masse’ methinks. But, there’ll be people who read that and take it at face value rather than checking the available facts. He knows this so he spouts its’ like again and again.
How about this one – he uses it frequently;
“Yeah, I'll believe a SFX makeup artist (NOT a propmaker)”
This is supposed to make you question my credibility as a prop maker. Now, having made many things over the past 23 years of work in Special effects, model effects, props and make-up FX I’ve made a lot more props than CT, or many others are aware of but he drops this one in to make you think; “…. Yeah, what does this guy know about prop making or engineering - he just sticks rubber on folks faces?”
Ok – bother to look at my body of work and you’ll see pictures of props like the ones on the flickr page and things like these;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_wF5SGFFMQ
So, compared against CT’s vast experience of making props and doing engineering for film and TV……… CT’s vast experience of ????……….. Hmmmmm, Ok, what exactly does he do besides talk out of his ass? Can you show me one example other than his sonic to prove any legacy as a prop maker? Nope – thought not.
Like I've said before, you're good at SFX makeup. Pretty shit in anything else. For fuck's sake, if I'm so shit and you're so good, how did I manage to produced a sonic screwdriver replica that pisses all over your's in terms of accuracy without (as you allege) having access to a prop? Makes you look like a complete hack doesn't it?Still, at least you're working eh?
Actually, I made the ring and the chameleon arch watch on my site. Not bad for someone who got into propmaking in 2007 wouldn't you say? And it's still a hobby. Don't you just hate being this talented? As for my other stuff....well, look high above you. It's orbiting you. And the rest? Well, that's classified ;-)
So I’m off away from all this these days as I mentioned. Crazy busy times at MFX. Exciting big projects, as well as little ‘big’ projects at home. I have a baby due in two weeks which, along with my retirement from the replica business, means I don’t bother with all the forum stuff much. To be honest it’s a relief because who needs this crap? Anyway, I hope CT can see his way to stop throwing mud and slurs at individuals who have no reason to be slandered and abused by him. By all means CT, chuck all the crap you like at me. I don’t care. I know it’s just burning jealousy
Well Neill, congratulations, I'll send you some flowers. As to which ones they are, you'll just have to guess. Glad your life is working out. Jealousy? Mais non! To quote that wonderful modern poet, Mr Clubber Lang "I don't hate [Balboa], I pity da fool!""
So there you have it. Yet another whitewash. Attacking me but doing nothing to attack my arguments. Not once has he addressed my issues regarding accuracy. No, he'd rather address me and my apparent agenda. Ask yourself, is this the argument of a man who is in the right? No, it's an angry and emotional rant with all the substance of a prawn cracker. He has proven nothing, added very little to what has been said before and still not addressed any of the burning questions. A cautionary masterclass in how to skirt the issues with misdirection, irrelevance and spin. Instead of logically, intelligently arguing or addressing the questions, he goes on the offensive with all the finesse of a Kerry Katona on dexedrine. Dear blog readers, the man has shown himself for the lying, hypocritical toerag I always suspected him to be. My only hope is that he does not pass these rather dubious qualities onto his unborn child.
Much love and peas x
